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	<title>Comments on: BART 2008 Surveys Tell the Story of Bay Area Regional Growth</title>
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	<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/</link>
	<description>Transportation and urban planning in the San Francisco Bay Area</description>
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		<title>By: West Dublin/Pleasanton BART: Tempering Great Expectations &#171; Transbay Blog</title>
		<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/#comment-9681</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[West Dublin/Pleasanton BART: Tempering Great Expectations &#171; Transbay Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Feb 2011 10:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transbayblog.com/?p=3846#comment-9681</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] have long been a supporter of constructing infill BART stations, at least in those promising locations where there could be substantial benefit to doing so.  [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] have long been a supporter of constructing infill BART stations, at least in those promising locations where there could be substantial benefit to doing so.  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: A new direction for the BART Board of Directors: The choice is ours &#171; Transbay Blog</title>
		<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/#comment-9290</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A new direction for the BART Board of Directors: The choice is ours &#171; Transbay Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Oct 2010 14:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transbayblog.com/?p=3846#comment-9290</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] capital projects, and that infill stations &#8220;won&#8217;t pencil out.&#8221;  Rather, a few well-chosen urban infill stations are the exact type of capital project that likely will pencil out, by increasing ridership at a [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] capital projects, and that infill stations &#8220;won&#8217;t pencil out.&#8221;  Rather, a few well-chosen urban infill stations are the exact type of capital project that likely will pencil out, by increasing ridership at a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bike to Work Day 2009: Progress with a gift bag &#171; FutureOakland</title>
		<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/#comment-7224</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bike to Work Day 2009: Progress with a gift bag &#171; FutureOakland]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 17:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transbayblog.com/?p=3846#comment-7224</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Transbay Blog looks at newly-released BART rider survey data, and concludes that infill stations are a better investment than suburban extensions. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Transbay Blog looks at newly-released BART rider survey data, and concludes that infill stations are a better investment than suburban extensions. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/#comment-7219</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 May 2009 16:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transbayblog.com/?p=3846#comment-7219</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fascinating read.  I lived in Arlington for 6 years from 1994-2000.  I watched the development along Wilson Blvd sprout during this time and after when I returned for a visit.  A couple points to mention...


The orange line was in place along this corridor by the early 80s.  Each station and its surrounding area was to have a particular focus...government (Courthouse), education (Virginia Square), urban village/retail (Clarendon), etc.  Over the course of two decades development grew organically around these stations, rather than dozing a 2-mile swath and putting up towers and condos.  It took a while for the empty lots to disappear.  Today, there are still some empty patches, but the flow from Rosslyn to Ballston is mostly uninterrupted.

On the flip side, the development around Potomac Yards pales in comparison.  There is no metro station within walking distance (the plans for a privately-funded Potomac Yard station fell through several times).  Most people rely on the auto to get around as bus service on Route 1 is slow and unpredictable because of high traffic volume.  The center attraction is a huge suburban-type strip mall surrounded by condo towers.  As a result, the county has to backtrack to figure out how to incorporate better means of public transit to this area.


Back to the Bay Area...what I&#039;ve noticed with transit villages around the BART stations is that they don&#039;t assimilate into the existing neighborhoods.  At Fruitvale you have this behemoth structure that adjoins the commercial district on Intl., but it feels like it doesn&#039;t want to associate with the rest of the neighborhood.  The dismal development at EC Plaza earlier in the decade showed the lack of vision of creating a sustainable commercial/residential addition to the community.  So much promise for that area and all you got was a strip mall with styrofoam architectural detailling.  Very auto-focused.  Does not blend in with the community along San Pablo Ave.  ZERO housing built.


There are lessons to be learned throughout the process.  The most important ones are learned from others&#039; mistakes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fascinating read.  I lived in Arlington for 6 years from 1994-2000.  I watched the development along Wilson Blvd sprout during this time and after when I returned for a visit.  A couple points to mention&#8230;</p>
<p>The orange line was in place along this corridor by the early 80s.  Each station and its surrounding area was to have a particular focus&#8230;government (Courthouse), education (Virginia Square), urban village/retail (Clarendon), etc.  Over the course of two decades development grew organically around these stations, rather than dozing a 2-mile swath and putting up towers and condos.  It took a while for the empty lots to disappear.  Today, there are still some empty patches, but the flow from Rosslyn to Ballston is mostly uninterrupted.</p>
<p>On the flip side, the development around Potomac Yards pales in comparison.  There is no metro station within walking distance (the plans for a privately-funded Potomac Yard station fell through several times).  Most people rely on the auto to get around as bus service on Route 1 is slow and unpredictable because of high traffic volume.  The center attraction is a huge suburban-type strip mall surrounded by condo towers.  As a result, the county has to backtrack to figure out how to incorporate better means of public transit to this area.</p>
<p>Back to the Bay Area&#8230;what I&#8217;ve noticed with transit villages around the BART stations is that they don&#8217;t assimilate into the existing neighborhoods.  At Fruitvale you have this behemoth structure that adjoins the commercial district on Intl., but it feels like it doesn&#8217;t want to associate with the rest of the neighborhood.  The dismal development at EC Plaza earlier in the decade showed the lack of vision of creating a sustainable commercial/residential addition to the community.  So much promise for that area and all you got was a strip mall with styrofoam architectural detailling.  Very auto-focused.  Does not blend in with the community along San Pablo Ave.  ZERO housing built.</p>
<p>There are lessons to be learned throughout the process.  The most important ones are learned from others&#8217; mistakes.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/#comment-7218</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 20:51:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transbayblog.com/?p=3846#comment-7218</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Danny, thanks for reading (and for emerging out from lurkdom to comment!). 

Re: 30th/Mission, it&#039;s in limbo until we make it a priority. BART and MTC are wrapped up in extension projects (BART to Warm Springs, BART to SJ, eBART, Oakland Airport Connector), and aren&#039;t making the urban core a priority. This philosophy is actually changing, but it&#039;s somewhat embryonic and theoretical at this point. And so much prior planning has already been done on those extensions that we aren&#039;t seeing real steps being taken yet to step up urban service to where it needs to be. Basically, the suburban projects are the ones being funded (or vying for funding) right now, while the urban improvements are being postponed until the next generation of projects. This is why you see the sort of backwards approach, in which all the expensive rail projects are in the suburbs, while the high-ridership urban corridors are basically only getting cheaper BRT projects (Van Ness, Geary, and Telegraph/East 14th). The Central Subway is the notable exception ... but then, you probably already know my thoughts on that. And then there&#039;s Caltrain DTX, which is the rare gem in the bunch.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Danny, thanks for reading (and for emerging out from lurkdom to comment!). </p>
<p>Re: 30th/Mission, it&#8217;s in limbo until we make it a priority. BART and MTC are wrapped up in extension projects (BART to Warm Springs, BART to SJ, eBART, Oakland Airport Connector), and aren&#8217;t making the urban core a priority. This philosophy is actually changing, but it&#8217;s somewhat embryonic and theoretical at this point. And so much prior planning has already been done on those extensions that we aren&#8217;t seeing real steps being taken yet to step up urban service to where it needs to be. Basically, the suburban projects are the ones being funded (or vying for funding) right now, while the urban improvements are being postponed until the next generation of projects. This is why you see the sort of backwards approach, in which all the expensive rail projects are in the suburbs, while the high-ridership urban corridors are basically only getting cheaper BRT projects (Van Ness, Geary, and Telegraph/East 14th). The Central Subway is the notable exception &#8230; but then, you probably already know my thoughts on that. And then there&#8217;s Caltrain DTX, which is the rare gem in the bunch.</p>
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		<title>By: Josh</title>
		<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/#comment-7217</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Josh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 20:41:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transbayblog.com/?p=3846#comment-7217</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Danny

The 30th St station is gathering dust pending the political leadership to put it forward

@david vartanoff

The Van Ness/Potrero line is the old Muni H streetcar.  I completely agree that this should be brought back and connected via C Chav or Evans to HP]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Danny</p>
<p>The 30th St station is gathering dust pending the political leadership to put it forward</p>
<p>@david vartanoff</p>
<p>The Van Ness/Potrero line is the old Muni H streetcar.  I completely agree that this should be brought back and connected via C Chav or Evans to HP</p>
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		<title>By: david vartanoff</title>
		<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/#comment-7216</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[david vartanoff]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 19:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transbayblog.com/?p=3846#comment-7216</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[DC Metro geys more riders because it goes mor places--several different routes thru downtown, likewise river crossings to VA--direct to National Airport from the begining of the Yellow line.  Its as if BART ran out Geary, crossed the Golden Gate, had a west side of SF N-S trunk connecting the Richmond/Matin directly to Daly City and south., aand a Van Ness to  BVHP via the Potrero, Bayshore corridor, and the Muni Metro had remained a BART tunnel.  
Further thoughts, Bethesda was already a busy area--even 40+ years ago when I was a high schooler, IBM already had its Federal Systems Division offices on Wisconsin not very far from the Farm Women&#039;s Coop--nice time warp to today&#039; chic farmewrs&#039;s markets.

Infill? yes, And fgar better cost benefit than even a mile of the the SJ boondoggle.   Along w/ a station east of LM, there is fallow land there for a mini yard/telay track installation to hold OOS trains, lay up trains to serve events @ Coliseum--which needs to be three tracks two platforms.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DC Metro geys more riders because it goes mor places&#8211;several different routes thru downtown, likewise river crossings to VA&#8211;direct to National Airport from the begining of the Yellow line.  Its as if BART ran out Geary, crossed the Golden Gate, had a west side of SF N-S trunk connecting the Richmond/Matin directly to Daly City and south., aand a Van Ness to  BVHP via the Potrero, Bayshore corridor, and the Muni Metro had remained a BART tunnel.<br />
Further thoughts, Bethesda was already a busy area&#8211;even 40+ years ago when I was a high schooler, IBM already had its Federal Systems Division offices on Wisconsin not very far from the Farm Women&#8217;s Coop&#8211;nice time warp to today&#8217; chic farmewrs&#8217;s markets.</p>
<p>Infill? yes, And fgar better cost benefit than even a mile of the the SJ boondoggle.   Along w/ a station east of LM, there is fallow land there for a mini yard/telay track installation to hold OOS trains, lay up trains to serve events @ Coliseum&#8211;which needs to be three tracks two platforms.</p>
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		<title>By: Danny</title>
		<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/#comment-7215</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Danny]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 17:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transbayblog.com/?p=3846#comment-7215</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As usual, Eric, a fantastic post!  Even though I don&#039;t always comment, I follow your blog regularly.  It&#039;s my favorite out of all the Bay Area transit/land use blogs.  Keep up the good work, and I look forward to reading your future posts.  

BTW, does anyone know what ever happened to the 30th St and Mission Station?  I read parts of the study from the BART website, but there is no indication as to whether they are moving forward with this project or simply have it eternally on the back burner.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As usual, Eric, a fantastic post!  Even though I don&#8217;t always comment, I follow your blog regularly.  It&#8217;s my favorite out of all the Bay Area transit/land use blogs.  Keep up the good work, and I look forward to reading your future posts.  </p>
<p>BTW, does anyone know what ever happened to the 30th St and Mission Station?  I read parts of the study from the BART website, but there is no indication as to whether they are moving forward with this project or simply have it eternally on the back burner.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/#comment-7214</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 16:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transbayblog.com/?p=3846#comment-7214</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[DaveO: read that sentence you quoted again very carefully. &quot;Getting rid of parking&quot; is not its only logical conclusion. That is the conclusion you&#039;ve imputed to it. Suburban stations will require some parking, but BART&#039;s placement of that parking -- either with surface lots, or with unnecessarily gigantic parking garages immediately as you step out of the station -- needs to be rethought and redesigned. One reason why I said that is because of the BART-SJ extension, which anticipates some truly mammoth parking structures.

As for your comment about a smaller pool of riders, I think this also depends on how you design a neighborhood. This is the exact point of what BART&#039;s survey data shows, and this was the exact reason why I went through the trouble of excerpting those maps and including them in the post. Ridership at 16th/Mission is several times higher than what&#039;s at North Concord, even though most riders at 16th/Mission are coming from within &lt;i&gt;one-half mile&lt;/i&gt; of the station (see the map in the post). This implies that the way to increase ridership is exactly by creating dense neighborhoods in the immediate vicinity of stations. Providing lots of parking is by no means an guarantee of ridership (see, e.g. tons of empty parking at Millbrae). Density, on the other hand, is a far surer guarantee. In the long-term, the system will be better-used if we prioritize urban density near stations.

I would really suggest you click that Arlington link that eddo provided above. WMATA and BART are similar in many respects -- about the same miles of track, similar age (WMATA is just slightly younger and learned from our mistakes). Two big differences between BART and WMATA? WMATA has way more stations, and it has essentially created urban downtowns next to its metro stations -- and this is critical -- &lt;i&gt;even where the surrounding area is suburban.&lt;/i&gt; (Cross-reference: I also wrote about this topic last year &lt;a href=&quot;http://transbayblog.com/2008/07/17/on-walkability-density-and-transit-villages/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;on this post&lt;/a&gt;.) The point is: this approach, which we have mostly not followed in the Bay Area, creates a much larger pool of riders than a parking lot. And for doing that, WMATA&#039;s ridership is about double BART&#039;s, for about the same number of track miles. We have a long way to go on this.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DaveO: read that sentence you quoted again very carefully. &#8220;Getting rid of parking&#8221; is not its only logical conclusion. That is the conclusion you&#8217;ve imputed to it. Suburban stations will require some parking, but BART&#8217;s placement of that parking &#8212; either with surface lots, or with unnecessarily gigantic parking garages immediately as you step out of the station &#8212; needs to be rethought and redesigned. One reason why I said that is because of the BART-SJ extension, which anticipates some truly mammoth parking structures.</p>
<p>As for your comment about a smaller pool of riders, I think this also depends on how you design a neighborhood. This is the exact point of what BART&#8217;s survey data shows, and this was the exact reason why I went through the trouble of excerpting those maps and including them in the post. Ridership at 16th/Mission is several times higher than what&#8217;s at North Concord, even though most riders at 16th/Mission are coming from within <i>one-half mile</i> of the station (see the map in the post). This implies that the way to increase ridership is exactly by creating dense neighborhoods in the immediate vicinity of stations. Providing lots of parking is by no means an guarantee of ridership (see, e.g. tons of empty parking at Millbrae). Density, on the other hand, is a far surer guarantee. In the long-term, the system will be better-used if we prioritize urban density near stations.</p>
<p>I would really suggest you click that Arlington link that eddo provided above. WMATA and BART are similar in many respects &#8212; about the same miles of track, similar age (WMATA is just slightly younger and learned from our mistakes). Two big differences between BART and WMATA? WMATA has way more stations, and it has essentially created urban downtowns next to its metro stations &#8212; and this is critical &#8212; <i>even where the surrounding area is suburban.</i> (Cross-reference: I also wrote about this topic last year <a href="http://transbayblog.com/2008/07/17/on-walkability-density-and-transit-villages/" rel="nofollow">on this post</a>.) The point is: this approach, which we have mostly not followed in the Bay Area, creates a much larger pool of riders than a parking lot. And for doing that, WMATA&#8217;s ridership is about double BART&#8217;s, for about the same number of track miles. We have a long way to go on this.</p>
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		<title>By: DaveO</title>
		<link>http://transbayblog.com/2009/05/10/bart-2008-surveys-tell-the-story-of-bay-area-regional-growth/#comment-7213</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[DaveO]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 May 2009 14:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://transbayblog.com/?p=3846#comment-7213</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;This suggests that BART’s current practice of reserving station-adjacent land for large above-ground parking garages should be corrected at existing stations and avoided for any new stations that are built.&quot;

Completely backwards.  This means that the only people who are willing to take BART are people withing walking distance of the station, UNLESS a parking facility near BART is built.  If you get rid of the parking, you will change the pattern of BART users around the station, but you will draw on a smaller pool of customers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This suggests that BART’s current practice of reserving station-adjacent land for large above-ground parking garages should be corrected at existing stations and avoided for any new stations that are built.&#8221;</p>
<p>Completely backwards.  This means that the only people who are willing to take BART are people withing walking distance of the station, UNLESS a parking facility near BART is built.  If you get rid of the parking, you will change the pattern of BART users around the station, but you will draw on a smaller pool of customers.</p>
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